Saw this today, and … well, I’m not going to be so forgiving to people suggesting to vote Third Party rather than vote for Biden. If Trump wants me to do something, and you want me to do that same something, that tells me you’re aligned with Trump.
Oh, you mean like all of those “I can’t bring myself to vote for Biden because he’s not doing enough for Palestine” comments everywhere?
But how else can someone feel morally superior while simultaneously assisting the candidate that will accelerate any genocides going on in other countries?
the candidate that will accelerate any genocides going on in other countries?
Or, indeed, in Palestine itself. Trump, after all, is the candidate who wants Netanyahu to “finish the job” of killing them off.
Better, I’ve gotten some of these:
“Because of YOU PERSONALLY I am going to vote for Trump but was going to vote for Biden before”
Oh no if only a single person on the internet hadn’t upset them, they could have voted for harm reduction. But now they have to vote contrary to what they want. So tragic.
It’s not so different from those saying that Hillary speaking plainly about awful people somehow did her election in…“zomg! If only Hillary had not said something something basket!1111”
Repubs have zero principles nor integrity. The same assholes who were screeching about emails are saying it’s okay to sell classified documents out of a bathroom. They pick some rhetoric they like and latch on. I don’t know how many of them deliberately coordinate on that kind of lie or if most just see it and repeat it.
I saw a couple of those just today.
Or all the jagoffs talking about how Zelenskyy is a “Nazi” and blaming Biden/Ukraine for what Putin has done…
It’s not even clever. It’s the same strategy as 2016 promoting Jill Stein.
And Jill Stein all those other times too…
Yep. How many times were that sort telling everyone that Hillary would “start WWIII”? How often do they say it even now?
I think Biden supporters are uhh… plenty divided. No need for help…
Not really on basic principles. Just on methods and approaches. There’s general agreement that the civilian casualties in Gaza are too high, for instance. The debate is do we try to maintain some influence over Netanyahu to try to sway him, or do we just cut them off and then whatever happens over there is whatever happens, we’d wash our hands of it.
Then the people that go after him more hardcore aren’t exactly the strongest “supporters”.
So you support apartheid, you just draw the line at too many dead children?
Stupid hot-take. Israel has been an ally of the United States for decades. Biden is trying to walk a fine line between maintaining relations with them (despite their current despicable right-wing government, which might not last long, given the huge calls for a new election in Israel) and pressuring them to stop. Trump would gladly suggest paving Gaza over and turning it into a parking lot, and voting for any third-party candidate is identical in result to voting for Trump.
I just want to make you aware that your argument is that Biden is basically not responsible for his position on Israel. Like I really want you to actually notice what that does rhetorically, because you are effectively ceding the position that Biden is bad, but Trump would be worse (maybe).
So is Biden the President or is he not? Like, the fucking point is that Biden can do better right now and is choosing not to. Is he the President and capable of such a thing or is he not? With whom does the buck stop?
You need to start understanding that the consequence of the “Any blue will do argument” is the recognition that Biden is a weak, unfit leader that doesn’t have accountability, and that this rhetorical structure is what is losing Biden this election. Making excuses for Biden on this policy position weakens him as a candidate, and further ensures a Trump victory.
That’s a blatant misreading. He is fully responsible for his position, but due to the circumstances of this situation, his position is necessarily nuanced. It has to be, to avoid destabilizing the entire Middle East.
Imagine he just declares Israel no longer an ally, and tells them they’re on their own. How long before Iran attacks? How long before other Muslim-majority countries are dragged into it? How long before it becomes a broader conflict, with Israel fighting basically everyone?
How long before we end up dragged into it anyway?
Biden is trying to pressure Netanyahu with what leverage he has, and he is trying to prevent it from become a large regional conflict. I’m sure he wishes BiBi wasn’t the one in charge there - most Israeli citizens certainly seem to want him gone, too - but wish in one hand, shit in the other, and see which one fills up faster.
With Biden, we have someone in the White House who actually gives a shit whether Palestinians get to live. That’s a hell of a lot better than anything Trump has to offer.
With Biden, we have someone in the White House who actually gives a shit whether Palestinians get to live.
Biden is, and always has been, a full throat-ed Zionist. He’s maybe the furthest right Democrat on this issue from his cohort/ demographic of senators. He’s hard right in this way. Further right than Trump. You are projecting nuance and your own desire to belief that Biden is good on Israel onto Biden beliefs. But by Biden’s own words and his stated beliefs, he is doing pretty much exactly what we would expect him to do in support of Zionism. If you map current actions onto his previously stated beliefs, nothing is out of order. The only change has bee some lip-service sound byte level saber rattling. There is no need to project deep nuance onto the situation if you just look at Biden’s words and policy positions and map them to what he does. He lines up as a squarely Neo-conservative Zionist in rhetoric (preter Israels advancement of the genocide of the Palestinian people post October) and has lined up squarely as a Neo-conservative Zionist in action. He makes decisions and acts like the person he said he is.
The alternative is Trump. Tell me Trump’s position on Palestine.
that go after him more hardcore aren’t exactly the strongest “supporters”.
Yeah that’s just patently untrue. The people going hard in the paint on Biden from the left are your hardcore progressive and leftist base. People that actually volunteer on campaigns, donate, go door to door, sign people up to vote and otherwise do work to get people elected. Think our revolution, justice democrats, extinction rebellion etc… Its not people passively engaged in politics that are activated and engaged in these organizations which are fundamental to getting any Democrats elected. Its activated, deeply engaged, strongly opinionated people who do the work of getting Democrats elected.
And this highlights the divide in Biden’s support. You have armchair centrists who basically do almost nothing and are only minimally engaged in the political process wagging their fingers saying “Any Blue Will Do” at the cohort of individuals who are being critical of Biden, but whom are also operate the cranks of the actual machines that gets Democrats elected. Any leftist worth their salt understands strategic voting, but that’s not the point. The point has been that this neo-liberal, technocratic approach to voting that Democratic centrists are insisting on, is losing and will continue to lose this election. The only thing that has kept Biden in this game was an activist rebellion within the Democratic primary system that forced his response, and he’s only really offered a papier-mâché stiffening of his rhetoric on Israel, but has done basically nothing to fix the underlying issue. IF Biden doesn’t fundamentally shift his position on Gaza and Israel now, this is over. He’s lost this election.
In this vein, the only thing that can actually save Biden from him self is a complete and total rebellion within the DNC voter base, and to basically drag Biden to a better policy position. Otherwise he will lose this election. The lame ass excuse of “Well Trump would be worse” is actually working against Biden right now, because Biden is actually the president, not Trump. The phrase “The buck stops here” is so apropos in this situation, that its almost comical.
basically drag Biden to a better policy position.
I keep hearing words like “fight” and “drag” and “push” as to what we do to stop this, but they don’t mean actually fighting or dragging or pushing, just being annoying in ways that are easily dismissed.
I’ve gotten enough “fuck you I do what I want” letters from my reps and senators about things that I’ve given up “pushing” them in that way.
I think you make a good point on this. Its also not clear to me that any amount of cajoling is going to move Biden. However, I can’t think of anything else that can be ‘done’. If demanding he step further to us on a policy to get our votes when he’s losing an election doesn’t move him, it might be that he cares more about the policy position than he does winning the election.
And it kind of seems like that’s the case. He’s losing the election and he’s not moving on the policy position except in ‘leaked calls’ and sternly worded letters. If he doesn’t move left, he loses the election, but staying where he is at policy wise might be more important to him than preventing Trump from taking office. We shouldn’t assume he has the same priorities we do around government. Everything I’ve seen from his generation of geriatric politicians is an unfounded faith in the systems ability to self correct and resist things like the coup attempt in 2021. He’s from a generation that believes “the system works”, because its worked well for him/ them. I wouldn’t put it past him to leave us completely exposed to a fetishist take over because of this unfounded belief. In failing to support Ukraine when its core to the principals of a liberal democracy, and in supporting Israel while the actions they take are antithetical to a liberal democracy, he’s left us glaringly exposed to a fascist take over this election cycle.
The other part is that online lefties like us are a minority. If Biden does move left he risks losing the election to the majority of Americans who support Israel unconditionally. So nobody’s going to end up happy and he loses the election anyway.
He’s from a generation that believes “the system works”, because its worked well for him/ them.
This is a great insight that people who keep saying “we just need to push him after the election” don’t seem to get. Yes, I’m sure that in the past writing letters to Congress might have done something more than waste paper. But the system is so broken now that people don’t believe them and see the only way to get a message across that this is unacceptable is to not vote.
Jesus Christ. “If Biden supports genocide, and you’re aligned with Biden, that tells me you support genocide”. Is that how your logic works?
Biden doesn’t support genocide. He supports Israel’s right to exist, and thinks that they have a right to defend themselves. And even he is saying Israel must start respecting the laws of war or lose US support. You know what Trump said? “Finish the problem”. Even on this stupid level, you should be voting Biden because Trump is worse.
So, no, stupid person or Trump plant. That’s not how my logic works.
He is materially supporting the genocide. Even you bounce between describing this genocide as “Israel’s right to exist” and apologizing for Biden by citing his empty theatrical handwringing over Israel’s obvious crimes.
Edit: Honestly, which is it? Is Israel “fighting a just war”, or is it " going too far"? If it’s “going too far” as Biden is hinting, where and when specifically has it gone too far? More to the point, if Biden doesn’t take concrete steps to rein Israel in, what actual difference is there between Biden admin policy and Trump’s statement of “finish the job”?
*sigh*. Why do I even bother. Oh right, because if I don’t, other LIVs will listen to you and buy the bullshit you’re selling to weaken Biden and strengthen Trump. So here we go.
Biden is caught between the rock of supporting Israel despite their atrocious behaviours in Gaza and the hard place of either leaving Israel open to being destroyed by other Middle Eastern nations, or allowing Russia to bring Israel into BRICS as part of the anti-USA counter-movement in Russia’s and China’s desired ‘multi-polar’ world (and read that to mean the USA is ground under heal and now Russia and China are the new USA, because that’s exactly what it means).
Making the hard place even harder is the fact that if Biden were to cancel support for Israel tonight, I guaranfuckingtee you that by tomorrow, Russian-amplified Republican propaganda will be screaming to every person they can reach tomorrow the news that “Biden is an antisemitic puppet for Iran, Saudi Arabia, and every other Islamofascist nation in the Middle East and let innocent Jews die at the hands of the evil Hamas!!!” That could cost him more votes than not giving in to you lot of shitheads calling him a genocidal maniac and losing your votes.
It’s NEVER as simple as you lot make it out to be. International politics is nasty, and sometimes, you don’t get what you want. But Biden’s willing to entertain threatening Israel with a reduction of aid. Trump won’t be, and that’s on top of every other horrible thing he’s outright stated he’s going to do. Your blathering over how Biden is killing Muslims over there is going to get a metric fuckton of Muslims, Gays, Minorities, and even Liberals killed here in this fucking country.
So, stupid person or Trump plant, it’s STILL not clear why you should vote for anyone else than Biden unless you want Trump to win.
I don’t know why you bother either. Maybe you are trying to convince yourself. I can’t imagine the cognitive dissonance you are laboring under. You have to come up with wild theories that you pass off as some kind of sober ‘realpolitik’, which you paint as inevitable if Biden were to do literally anything to stop enabling Israel’s “atrocious behaviours”. The road to hell is littered with discarded principles. It blows my mind that you are angrier at people like me, than at the state of political leadership in the US. The fact that you can call me a “LIV”, “stupid person” or “trump plant” rather than understand that mine is a valid point of view, that I’ve come to based on my own experiences leaves me wondering how you come to such conclusions. You don’t know if or how I vote, and none of what I have said is even relevant to that. Anyway, I suspect your country isn’t really a democracy either, so I guess ultimately neither of our opinions much matter.
I will not be voting for the genocide suppier no matter what you say.
You morally should vote as effectively as you can EVERY TIME. EVERY vote on the left moves the conversation left.
What you’re advocating is a disastrous take, and you’re falling for classic voter suppression tactics. If you vote for Trump he backs Israel AND Russia. If you don’t vote at all, or throw away your vote, you’re helping politics move towards the right. It’s like a game of tug of war and you’re giving up before it starts.
Rush said it best “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”
This is what I can’t stand about these “I will not vote for Biden” Neanderthals. They’re not making a point by abstaining; they’re indirectly aiding Trump while pretending they have the moral high ground.
I used to be them in my youth. They think it’s like the free market: if I don’t buy any spaghetti sauce because I don’t like classic or meaty then eventually someone will fill the gap and get me the chunky sauce I’ve been wanting. Unfortunately that simply doesn’t work in politics.
Once you see it for what it is, a game of tug of war, you realise that you have to play everytime. Even if the current leader doesn’t want to go as far as you want every step in the right direction is a victory in itself. It also shifts the center for the next election. You get what you want through steadfast victories over time not through instant change towards an ideal world.
